Gunner Guide

Discussion in 'Guides' started by WinterSnow, Oct 10, 2015.

  1. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    How does this example make any sense?

    If you need to travel 210km and you travel at
    50km/h: 4.2 hours taken
    60km/h: 3.5 hours taken, takes 20% less time
    70km/h: 3 hours taken, takes 16.6% less time

    Does this mean it's actually better for the car at 50km/h because its % increase is larger? All you care about is the time taken.
     
  2. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    We are just going in circle.
    Percent increase by itself is meaningless and it's meaningless in comparing characters. That's why I gave an extreme example of a character with 50DPS and a character with 500DPS. 100% increase in DPS on the first character still makes him does extra 50DPS. The same 100% increase in DPS on the second character provides an extra 500DPS. Pray tell how does percent increase alone work?
    In your original statement, you were commenting on percent increase in the character's individual DPS, you were NOT commenting on percent increase in your party's total DPS. Please don't try to change what you were saying to suit your argument.

    Edit: Here's a question for you. A buff gives 50% DPS increase to 1 character of my party. The same buff gives 100% DPS increase to a 2nd character in my party. Together with 3 other characters who do 1000DPS in total, they currently take 1min to finish a certain quest. Please calculate the percent decrease of time it will take for my party to finish the same quest when they have the buff. No I'm not providing those two characters' base DPS, since apparently percent increase is all you need and absolute value increase is meaningless to you. I will concede if you can answer this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  3. VZX

    VZX Active Member

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    What does this has to do with my statement? Not only in sequitur, but this also a straw-man attempt.
    You give multi variable linear equations with insufficient unknowns to solve for all variables, which is unsolvable.
    Hence you are right and mine wrong.
    Where did I say by adopting the view of percentage increase, one can solve multi-variable linear equations with insufficient unknowns?

    It's a indeed percent increase. If I specifically say about absolute increase, I won't word it that way.

    Where did I say the cars travelling 210km of distance?
    Ugggh... quote my words on Olga again and pinpoint it how your claim of what I'm saying has the same meaning of what you are saying in this line.
     
  4. WinterSnow

    WinterSnow Active Member

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    guys guys, can you stop this dps discussion ?? kinda circle around and boring
    i am not making thread just for that
     
  5. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    ...Why does it matter? I gave a point of reference because your examples are extremely inconsistent. In my post, it's clear to see that the % increase does not matter - what you care about is the time taken.

    If you try and apply the same logic to DPS ie that a bigger % increase means that your total time cleared will be faster then you're wrong, since it's relative to what the arcana started with. If you give an arcana +50 DPS, whether it has base 1 DPS (500% increase) or base 1000 DPS (5% increase), you're still only doing +50 damage per second and it will die at the same time regardless of the arcana you give it to. This is why +50 DPS to Mira or +50 DPS to Baltoro is equivalent.

    If you explain your examples more clearly then perhaps it's worth discussing, but I either can't make sense of what you're saying or I find extreme fault with how they're constructed. You've still yet to provide an argument for why % increase matters.
     
  6. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what you implied. You were commenting on percent increase on individual characters, namely Milla and Baltro. Then you went on to say how you could calculate how much faster you can finish a battle using percent increase and question the use of absolute values. Here I'm asking you to show me how you calculate the % faster battle time WITHOUT directly or indirectly calculating the absolute increase or the absolute damage when you have both characters in party. Take only the percent increase and show me how you convert them to % faster battle when you have both in party.

    Did you even read what you quoted? I have been saying percent increase. When did I say anything about you saying absolute increase? Please read it again and note the italicized text to understand what I was trying to say.
     
  7. VZX

    VZX Active Member

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    %increase matter because I can use it to measure the other things.

    I don't understand why we are still talking about commutativity again.
    I said it the 2nd time now : I am not arguing with commutativity.
    50 DPS from A is the same with 50 DPS from B, end of story. We are on the same page here. Please don't say the other way around.
     
  8. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    Character A has 50% increase in DPS. Character B has 100% increase in DPS. Please show me how you use the two percent increase values to measure % faster battle time when both character A and character B are in the same party. To make it easy for you, they are the only ones in party.
     
  9. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    Provide an example then. I've provided many using your own car or Olga examples but I want to see a clear, well-explained one from you.

    Here's one more. As a setup, I will be using two archers with 10000 attack. Let's call the first Mira and the second Baltoro. Baltoro additionally has 20% base critrate. Mira has (1000)/2 = 500 DPS and Baltoro has (1000)(1+0.5*0.2)/2 = 550 DPS.
    A boss with 5000 HP takes:
    5000/(500+550) = 4.76s to kill​

    Let's say I give Eleanora buff to Mira only. Now she deals (1000)(1+0.5*0.2)/2 = 550 DPS as well. This is a 10% attack increase.
    A boss with 5000 HP takes:
    5000/(550+550) = 4.54s to kill​

    Now let's say I give Eleanora buff to Baltoro only. Now he deals (1000)(1+0.5*0.4)/2 = 600 DPS. This is a 9% attack increase. You can see what's about to happen here, but for completion's sake:
    A boss with 5000 HP takes:
    5000/(500+600) = 4.54s to kill​

    Even though Mira has a higher % increase, it is no more efficient on Mira than Baltoro.
     
  10. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    I could see the reply: I said it the 3rd time now : I am not arguing with commutativity.
     
  11. Turel

    Turel Active Member

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    I didn't read all the thread though I like the numbers, but what is important is what works on the practice for you.

    I have a LB1 Milla (I gave her the gumi's gun because of her higher atk rate) and MLB Baltro (death whisper) and on practice, my baltro is superior to my milla, not just because of DPS (he crits more often than milla), because I find his special very useful breaking shields on some bosses and milla's self buff while it's strong, you'll lose some dps moving her around, also, you can just leave baltro on a line and forget about that line, he'll mow down everyone that doesn't use a shield. I'm even using Hellicity a lot (what!?), on paper she seems terrible but in practice she is probably the stronger mage right now (on the sea) and she has piercing + more mana chance from killed enemies. I'm even using her outside the sea, I kicked velnar out my mage party for her.

    Both gunners are excellent, but I favor baltro more. But I'm biased because my Milla is LB1 and my Baltro MLB, so it's natural that my Baltro is superior.

    On normal mobs the slow buff isn't that important because Milla would likely kill that enemy with her 3 shots volley, I know on harders quest this will be more important and you can pair it with something like sasha kizuna for an extra atk boost and even giving baltro an slow chance kizuna.

    Numbers aren't everything, but I don't think I'll ever switch my baltro out my party.
     
  12. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    The reason this whole discussion started to begin with is because some of the arguments or things said were circular, so VZX and I tried to point them out.

    For example:
    If Mira's passive has no effect on normal mobs, then Baltoro's doesnt either. In that case, she has the clear edge against bosses because she has a way of boosting her damage, whereas Baltoro doesn't.

    Keep in mind when you see Baltoro @ 640 and Mira @ 615, this is WITH Baltoro's innate 20% crit. That is his final number. Mira's is without her slow passive, so it fluctuates between 615 and 800, but you can see it's quite easy to make up the difference. So when one says Baltoro has higher DPS, there should be a clear detailed explanation for why you seem to think this occurs. If you think higher crit incidence lends itself well with the piercing skill, then you can say that, but saying "higher DPS" is flat out incorrect.

    And of course your MLB Baltoro is better than LB1 Mira. I as well have LB3 Mira compared to LB1 Baltoro that I favor more. I also have LB3 Baltoro and a LB2 Mira that I still favor Mira more when there are no shield breaks. Mira's special is much more versatile, and you do roughly the same damage for one less archer mana.

    Numbers aren't everything, but if you're not able to back up your argument with solid reasoning then it's not useful at all.
     
  13. Pepe

    Pepe Active Member

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    I have a question, Milla's slow procs on all her three shots, like crit? Or just with one? I guess that would also change her total DPS.
     
  14. Turel

    Turel Active Member

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    I just written my personal experience with the two gunners, I personally favor baltro more because of my current state. Maybe if I had MLB milla and LB1 Baltro my opinion would be different. I didn't say that Milla or baltro has higher dps, with slow into play, milla deals more damage, that's a fact and it's backed by your numbers. That why I said numbers aren't everything, on my personal experience Baltro is very valuable.

    Each shot has a chance, so your first shot can proc slow and the next two will have the buffed damage.
     
  15. Pepe

    Pepe Active Member

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    Alrite but, what if the enemy dies within the first two shots, if all three shots procs with slow it would mean that the second shot would pierce the dead enemy and slow down the next enemy meaning on a third buffed shot, im not sure if im making my point at this moment of the day, lol.

    This would be highly beneficial for slow parties and what not, i ask, not to doubt Millas and Baltros DPS, but for knowledge reasons, i dont have Milla so i have no way to test it.
     
  16. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    If we agree that DPS doesn't matter, or that it's negligible, or whatever it is one believes but I suggest we ignore it for the purpose of this argument because frankly every argument concerning it has been rather redundant, then what does Baltoro offer that Mira doesn't?

    His 3 mana skill shield breaks. That's it. This is what I've been saying some 2 pages ago, but if you're up against a non-shielded boss it seems Mira is vastly superior. Not only is 3 mana very inflexible, especially considering you might be running a Morgan/Morgan/Cleric/Baltoro/gunner party which will dilute your mana, but it generally offers less damage and therefore less use against bosses than anything Mira could do. The only exception being a shielded boss.
     
  17. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I don't understand these discussions of which character is better. A better discussion would be what party is better. Why does one need to decide whether Milla or Baltro is better when you can bring both? They have comparable DPS. You can use Milla's special on non-shielded boss or use Baltro's to break shield otherwise. Win-win. That's the beauty of having 4 slots + friend in your party.
     
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  18. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    That's what I do. The reason discussion exists is because you have two to three gunner slots, and there are going to be five to seven usable gunners in the future. I'm not specifically in search of one particular 'best' that will fit all situations, but we want to identify what a character's strengths and weaknesses are in order to determine where it should be used. Otherwise, you might as well pick units blindly from a hat.

    Mira
    +higher or at least comparable long-term DPS
    +special deals approx 34k average against non-shielded boss on max chain for 2 mana (here I made the estimate that only 3 out of 21 attacks are made when the enemy is slowed - this is just a lowball guess, but as soon as you start introducing other methods of slowing or a higher estimate then her damage will skyrocket)
    +special in same conditions deals approx 31k on chain 0
    +slows, which has some limited synergy with Dolly

    Baltoro
    +higher short-term "burst"
    +more crit consistency means more lane wipes (casino)
    +special and 2 volleys (to offer a suitable comparison to Mira) deals approx 34k average on max chain for 3 mana
    +special and 2 volleys in same conditions deals approx 21k on chain 0
    +breaks shields and knocks back for 3 mana

    So claims that Baltoro has higher DPS or that Baltoro is better at clearing bosses seem somewhat false. The real utility he has is shield breaking.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  19. Makibao

    Makibao Well-Known Member

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    ....And the future kizuna mechanic will only further complicates that "which unit is better" issue, as it will enable almost any unit to overcome whatever shortcoming they have with the right kizuna. :ninja:

    *runs*

    I certainly can't argue with the "which party is better" idea than just rating the unit individually though....., team synergy is one way to overcome obstacle even if your units are weak individually, to say at least.
     
  20. Turel

    Turel Active Member

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    This, just bring both. You need breaking that shield? Use baltro/constance.
    Otherwise, use your mana with your Milla. Baltro will help you with normal attack damage. Note that shielded bosses are kinda common, so it's safe to bring baltro or constance quite often.

    Speaking of party, what do you prefer, 2 morgan, 3 gunners or 2 morgan, 2 gunners and 1 utility archer?
    I'm leaning toward the second choice right now, Constance is good but with baltro she is kinda pointless outside wave heal, so I bring Farlin, Lucrezia (she is very strong with morgans buffs) or sasha and it's working wonders. Nikolas could be a good choice, but I don't find him very good.
    Or maybe 2 Morgans, 2 gunners and an extra knight. Sadly the only other decent knight that I have is Elza, barienna, Leaho or Orca, which I don't think bring that much out a gunner team, maybe leaho but I'd rather bring another archer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
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