Gunner Guide

Discussion in 'Guides' started by WinterSnow, Oct 10, 2015.

  1. WinterSnow

    WinterSnow Active Member

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    2 morgan 2 gunners 1 healer is enough for party but not enough in beast tavern
    you might wanna change that morgan to gurarao since he will got passive heal if 2 archer or more in your team
     
  2. Turel

    Turel Active Member

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    Hm I'm planning on skipping beast tavern, I think I have already a good roster of soldiers with ronda, rula, selena, selene, Teresa and future monette/Agudara.

    If healing is an issue, I could put healing kizunas like musica's or Linia's/Constance on my gunners/archers or just use farlin's skill. I don't think I should have that much trouble and I can always go back to my 3:warrior:1:cleric: , 3:warrior::knight:orca party or add farlin to the mix.
     
  3. WinterSnow

    WinterSnow Active Member

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    farlin didnt work in beast, they simply hit hard. bring blind kizuna to archer as well since there is moth that cause blind and poison. better do 3 warrior 1 healer 1 range unit (y)
     
  4. VZX

    VZX Active Member

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    Where did I say I could do it with JUST percent increase? Which is the strawman.
    When one say "You could build a house with a hammer", I know it's easy for normal person's brain to translating them to "You could build a house with JUST a hammer". But logically, the statements are not the same.

    Give me the DPS distribution weight, otherwise there can be multiple stories be made from those conditions.

    Those bolded sentences are exactly the things I have said.
    If one ended interpreting it as "Then Mila can clear faster/better than Baltoro" or some other way, it is their reading comprehension problem. I shall not continue arguing.

    I can use percentage increase to measure the increase of how much faster the unit can finish the battle.
    Of course, that's one useful thing, but doesn't necessarily imply I just need that ONE thing.
    I may need other things. Particularly, the one relating to DPS weight contribution. An idling 5* healer with 8k atk is practically have 0 DPS because their weight on DPS is 0%. A ranged unit that sits on empty lane is practically 0 DPS because their weight on DPS is 0%. When every single unit does not waste their DPS potential at all, then we should measure the DPS contribution (in percent) based on their total atk to the whole party attack.

    Now in this case, Baltoro and Mila DPS weight must be considered. One has 500, and the other has 550. So one weighs 47.62% while the other is.. well, 52.38%
    A 9.09...% increase on weight 52.38% (52.39% * 1.091...)is the same with the one weighted 47.62% being increased by 10%(47.62% * 1.1).

    HP / (47.62% + 52.38%) = X secs
    HP/ (47.62% * 1.1 + 52.38%) = 95.45% of X secs
    HP/ (47.62% + 52.38% * 1.091...) = 95.45% of X secs
    Both situation shaved off 4.55% of the battle time.
    But it doesn't change the fact that Mira gets more leverage over Baltoro from the 20% crit buffer.

    You'd get the same result with the ones having 700 and 770 DPS. And you'll end up playing with the same percent. Hence, I say percent increase is more interesting to play with.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  5. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    Ok... so you can't do it with just percent increase (like I didn't know already). Then percent increase is really not as good as you made it out to be. Afterall, I could use the absolute values to do it just as well with their base DPS. Why even bother to find out the weights. Apparently it's easier to get the base DPS than the weights. I don't know why you need percent increase and think it's better.

    No, she doesn't. But whatever.
     
  6. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    We acknowledged that % increase can be valuable in certain situations. Where we disagree is when to apply them.

    To my mind, you're basically just making it unnecessary complicated for yourself by translating things into % increase. To perform this step:
    You needed their DPS values to start with. If I took that information away, and I told you that Arcana A has a 50% attack increase and Arcana B has a 10% attack increase, you would not be able to tell me which has a higher value. You can calculate how much faster Arcana A clears with the attack increase relative to Arcana A without the attack increase, and you can calculate how much faster Arcana B clears with the attack increase relative to Arcana B without the attack increase, but you could offer no comparison between A and B.

    Instead of taking DPS values, converting them to convoluted percentages and then claiming that percentages are the de facto metric, why would you not just take the DPS values themselves?

    Anyway, I've shown that +50 DPS on either Arcana A or Arcana B has the exact same impact on the time it takes to kill a mob, regardless of their percent increase. If you and I are in agreement on that then I don't particularly have anything else to offer.
     
  7. VZX

    VZX Active Member

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    Because I'm talking about percent increase? The statement is true for any LB of Baltoro and Milla. Absolute increase? Not the same for any LB.
    Read my initial statement once again.
    If we are measuring "how much DPS", then I'll use the absolute value of DPS.
    I started about percent increase and it dragged on "absolute increase in unit A is the same with absolute increase in unit B, yadda yadda yadda, and therefore that statement is wrong." (n)
     
  8. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask you this: What do you mean exactly by "bigger boost"?
     
  9. VZX

    VZX Active Member

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    1.2/1.1 = 1.090909 = 9.1% increase.
    1.1/1.0 = 1.1 = 10% increase.
    Are we clear here?
     
  10. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    So, you are saying it's based solely on percent increase? If that's how you define it. Ok.
    I disagree, but whatever.
     
  11. VZX

    VZX Active Member

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    "based on" ?
    I'm not sure what are you trying to ask, but
    I'm calculating the percent increase of average hit coefficient after Eleonora's 20% crit boost
     
  12. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star Well-Known Member

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    The original statement that started it was this:

    Where we disagree on is how to apply the use of percent increases. From what you have said, a 1000 attack arcana with 5% attack increase "benefits less" than a 10 attack arcana with a 50% attack increase.

    But for most practical purposes, what we care about is the actual DPS increase. For that, you need to find out their DPS values (1000*0.05) = +50 attack vs (10*0.5) = +5 attack. In this case, I would say that the former actually benefits more. If you want to argue otherwise then I think you'll find you're in the minority.
     
  13. Hing

    Hing Well-Known Member

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    Your notion of "bigger boost" is solely based on the higher percent increase number.
     
  14. Kyrian

    Kyrian Well-Known Member

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    I'm just wondering if there's anything the Sin gunners (ex: Bomberman, Dolly) can do that Mira/Baltro can't. Are the sin gunners that much better than the Ocean Dawn gunners?
     
  15. WinterSnow

    WinterSnow Active Member

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    dolly got aoe, tatiana is good kizuna (1 mana starter), bomberman can reduce attack enemy if got blind ( his skill is cheap aoe 1 mana causing blind)
     
  16. Kyrian

    Kyrian Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! So is it worth rolling for them if I already have Milla/Baltro?
     
  17. Makibao

    Makibao Well-Known Member

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    I think you should at least get Tatiana since her mana training kizuna might come in handy for many situation, even if you don't care about her in particular. She also have highest gold boost based on ability alone.

    Bomber and Dolly probably depends on other arcanas that you have...., as mentioned by Snow, Bomber have blind debuff (good for Leaho) + anti blind kizuna, and Dolly have large aoe cross shot (casino destroyer until Hannes) + temp atk stacks per kill.
     
  18. Kyrian

    Kyrian Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Maki. If I have some spare prysma, I guess I'll pull at Sin tavern after I'm done pulling for the beasts! (y)
     
  19. WinterSnow

    WinterSnow Active Member

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    alicia will become your worst nightmare in that tavern :rolleyes:
     
  20. Kyrian

    Kyrian Well-Known Member

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    Hence why I'm not going to pull there until I get every other arcana I need/want (Oletta, Trelancia/Lilith, Minoa, Shauna + beast tavern arcana). I've been eyeing Gurarao for a long time, but if the sin tavern arcana are particularly worthwhile I would pull there first. I doubt I will pull unless I know for sure that Alicia is not on pickup. Skills and abilities aside, I just don't like her design.
     

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